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	<title>Comments on: The Return on Investment from ABC</title>
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	<link>http://costechnology.com/performance-center/common-cents-blog/the-return-on-investment-from-abc</link>
	<description>Performance Management &#38; Technology Consulting</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 15:24:50 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Michael Schulz</title>
		<link>http://costechnology.com/performance-center/common-cents-blog/the-return-on-investment-from-abc/comment-page-1#comment-80</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Schulz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 15:24:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://67.20.95.110/?p=368#comment-80</guid>
		<description>When discussing cause / effect models perhaps a good starting point would be Kim Warren&#039;s work &#039;Strategic Management Dynamics&#039;. It is basically a resource based view of strategy borrowing also from stock and flow models and systems dynamics concepts. 

I have done some testing on the method and it reveals some interesting results. There is also no need to distinguish between resources, drivers, activities etc. as the relationships are mathematically constructed. 

There seems to be a trend - converging of various disciplines from Management Accounting, Econometrics, Business Intelligence, Predictive Analytics towards real life predictive cause-effect models. 

Gary did predict this with his concept of a Chief Performance Officer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When discussing cause / effect models perhaps a good starting point would be Kim Warren&#8217;s work &#8216;Strategic Management Dynamics&#8217;. It is basically a resource based view of strategy borrowing also from stock and flow models and systems dynamics concepts. </p>
<p>I have done some testing on the method and it reveals some interesting results. There is also no need to distinguish between resources, drivers, activities etc. as the relationships are mathematically constructed. </p>
<p>There seems to be a trend &#8211; converging of various disciplines from Management Accounting, Econometrics, Business Intelligence, Predictive Analytics towards real life predictive cause-effect models. </p>
<p>Gary did predict this with his concept of a Chief Performance Officer.</p>
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		<title>By: Rajendra</title>
		<link>http://costechnology.com/performance-center/common-cents-blog/the-return-on-investment-from-abc/comment-page-1#comment-79</link>
		<dc:creator>Rajendra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 15:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://67.20.95.110/?p=368#comment-79</guid>
		<description>I think the &#039;cause and effect&#039; relationship is more relavent. The &#039;fixity&#039; or &#039;variability&#039; of costs can be debated. The &#039;short run&#039; or &#039;long run&#039; relavance can also be debated. But if the products/services or customers have consumed the resources (through) activities, it has be considered relavent to that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the &#8217;cause and effect&#8217; relationship is more relavent. The &#8216;fixity&#8217; or &#8216;variability&#8217; of costs can be debated. The &#8217;short run&#8217; or &#8216;long run&#8217; relavance can also be debated. But if the products/services or customers have consumed the resources (through) activities, it has be considered relavent to that.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim George</title>
		<link>http://costechnology.com/performance-center/common-cents-blog/the-return-on-investment-from-abc/comment-page-1#comment-78</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 15:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://67.20.95.110/?p=368#comment-78</guid>
		<description>Mike, Gary, I&#039;ve really enjoyed reading your exchange... I hope you are able to continue online once Gary works out how to get his connection from the Aussie beaches! 

Shouldn&#039;t we be recognising that the composition of a unit price is not just Fixed + Variable.... and that there can sometimes be a large grey patch in between. &quot;Variable&quot; is not always (rarely) straight-line, and &quot;Fixed&quot; can be a function of time (we can&#039;t get rid of the &quot;fixed&quot; costs immediately, but can reduce it over time... ) ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, Gary, I&#8217;ve really enjoyed reading your exchange&#8230; I hope you are able to continue online once Gary works out how to get his connection from the Aussie beaches! </p>
<p>Shouldn&#8217;t we be recognising that the composition of a unit price is not just Fixed + Variable&#8230;. and that there can sometimes be a large grey patch in between. &#8220;Variable&#8221; is not always (rarely) straight-line, and &#8220;Fixed&#8221; can be a function of time (we can&#8217;t get rid of the &#8220;fixed&#8221; costs immediately, but can reduce it over time&#8230; ) ?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike N.</title>
		<link>http://costechnology.com/performance-center/common-cents-blog/the-return-on-investment-from-abc/comment-page-1#comment-77</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike N.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 15:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://67.20.95.110/?p=368#comment-77</guid>
		<description>Hey Gary, thanks. I appreciate the feedback on my hypothesis. 

I think Goldratt is being unfair in his criticism of management accounting and, to me, as I said throughput accounting seems very much like marginal costing. I think the waters become muddied at the point where short term becomes long term, and all costs become variable. 

My argument is that yes the product demand consumes the resource of, in this case, direct labour but given the contradictions highlighted in my hypothesis isn&#039;t it, at best, misleading to attempt an allocation of costs per unit? Wouldn&#039;t those costs be more appropriately entered into FG stock as period conversion costs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Gary, thanks. I appreciate the feedback on my hypothesis. </p>
<p>I think Goldratt is being unfair in his criticism of management accounting and, to me, as I said throughput accounting seems very much like marginal costing. I think the waters become muddied at the point where short term becomes long term, and all costs become variable. </p>
<p>My argument is that yes the product demand consumes the resource of, in this case, direct labour but given the contradictions highlighted in my hypothesis isn&#8217;t it, at best, misleading to attempt an allocation of costs per unit? Wouldn&#8217;t those costs be more appropriately entered into FG stock as period conversion costs?</p>
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		<title>By: Gary C.</title>
		<link>http://costechnology.com/performance-center/common-cents-blog/the-return-on-investment-from-abc/comment-page-1#comment-76</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 15:23:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://67.20.95.110/?p=368#comment-76</guid>
		<description>Mike, 

Sorry. I am not buying into your logic. You will not get me take &quot;the leap of faith&quot; you reference. Labor payroll expenses and their capacity may &quot;belong&quot; to operations to &quot;supply&quot; to work, but it is product demand and mix that causes and consumes that capacity. 

Resource capacity is adjustable, especially different types of skill sets. Longer-term product mix demand changes can mean you may need more of some and less of another. TOC is OK for short-term prodction mix optimization, but beyond that needs marginal expense analysis, etc. 

Also, Goldratt&#039;s TOC &quot;throughput accounting&quot; the way he defined it requires the very special condition of a physical bottleneck 24 x7 x 365 days. Without that in place, then good old marginal / incremental expense analysis applies. (But few organizations do that well.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, </p>
<p>Sorry. I am not buying into your logic. You will not get me take &#8220;the leap of faith&#8221; you reference. Labor payroll expenses and their capacity may &#8220;belong&#8221; to operations to &#8220;supply&#8221; to work, but it is product demand and mix that causes and consumes that capacity. </p>
<p>Resource capacity is adjustable, especially different types of skill sets. Longer-term product mix demand changes can mean you may need more of some and less of another. TOC is OK for short-term prodction mix optimization, but beyond that needs marginal expense analysis, etc. </p>
<p>Also, Goldratt&#8217;s TOC &#8220;throughput accounting&#8221; the way he defined it requires the very special condition of a physical bottleneck 24 x7 x 365 days. Without that in place, then good old marginal / incremental expense analysis applies. (But few organizations do that well.)</p>
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		<title>By: Robert K.</title>
		<link>http://costechnology.com/performance-center/common-cents-blog/the-return-on-investment-from-abc/comment-page-1#comment-75</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 15:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://67.20.95.110/?p=368#comment-75</guid>
		<description>I have been watching that new Sunday program &quot;Undercover Boss&quot; where the CEO or COO take a week off and take entry level positions within their own company&#039;s and learn what is actually happening. 

After doing several ABC Studies or Processes based cost studies I was amazed at how many CEO&#039;s and C level executives did not know what was going on within these activities or processes to get their products to the final consumer. These studies where the pre-driver styles in order to get to the drivers of the cost (cause and effect style). They seem to rely on spreadsheets, graphs and ROI presentations. Yet, when faced with possible OSHA violations within the processes, no one wanted to change and look at what was going on. 

Maybe with the show (Undercover Boss) more Chief Executives will get the message that it is not ROI but the knowledge of what it actually cost to get that product (or service) to the final consumer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been watching that new Sunday program &#8220;Undercover Boss&#8221; where the CEO or COO take a week off and take entry level positions within their own company&#8217;s and learn what is actually happening. </p>
<p>After doing several ABC Studies or Processes based cost studies I was amazed at how many CEO&#8217;s and C level executives did not know what was going on within these activities or processes to get their products to the final consumer. These studies where the pre-driver styles in order to get to the drivers of the cost (cause and effect style). They seem to rely on spreadsheets, graphs and ROI presentations. Yet, when faced with possible OSHA violations within the processes, no one wanted to change and look at what was going on. </p>
<p>Maybe with the show (Undercover Boss) more Chief Executives will get the message that it is not ROI but the knowledge of what it actually cost to get that product (or service) to the final consumer.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Noble</title>
		<link>http://costechnology.com/performance-center/common-cents-blog/the-return-on-investment-from-abc/comment-page-1#comment-74</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Noble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 15:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://67.20.95.110/?p=368#comment-74</guid>
		<description>As far as TOC is concerned, I must admit that it has really made me think about the relevance of attempting to identify unit costs. For one they are often misunderstood and lead to sub optimal decisions being taken. At this point I should say that in my opinion that is our fault, because if we don&#039;t explain the limitations of the unit cost how can we expect non financial staff to make good decisions? 

Despite his seeming downer on management accounting (after all Goldratt&#039;s throughput accounting is not very different to marginal or relevant costing) he is right about the arbitrary allocations to arrive at unit cost. 

Consider two plants making the same item, material cost per unit is £100, conversion costs for the period are £1000. 

Plant A produces 1 unit Plant B produces an infinite number of units. 

Costs per unit will be: 

Plant 1 Material cost + conversion cost/unit = £1100 

Plant 2 Material cost + conversion cost/unit = £100 

I think that for processed items FG Stock should be the sum of material costs per unit x number of units plus conversion costs for the period (identified seperately). 

Attempting to compute total costs per unit has no value as far as I can see, but it could lead to invalid pricing decisions (especially where cost + pricing is used) or invalid make/buy decisions. 

To take this a step further one might argue that variable costs at least should be included in the cost/unit, not so. Let us consider direct labour, this should be fairly straightforward to assign to products. Total direct labour/total output = direct labour cost per unit. But: 

What happens if I improve the efficiency of my workforce? Perhaps we have a culture of continuous improvement, then over time the labour required to manufacture x number of items decreases. This then is not a fundamental property of the product, &quot;direct&quot; labour is a property of the process, and once you make that leap of faith you realise that there are no truly variable costs because everything can change irrespective of the product or quantity being manufactured.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as TOC is concerned, I must admit that it has really made me think about the relevance of attempting to identify unit costs. For one they are often misunderstood and lead to sub optimal decisions being taken. At this point I should say that in my opinion that is our fault, because if we don&#8217;t explain the limitations of the unit cost how can we expect non financial staff to make good decisions? </p>
<p>Despite his seeming downer on management accounting (after all Goldratt&#8217;s throughput accounting is not very different to marginal or relevant costing) he is right about the arbitrary allocations to arrive at unit cost. </p>
<p>Consider two plants making the same item, material cost per unit is £100, conversion costs for the period are £1000. </p>
<p>Plant A produces 1 unit Plant B produces an infinite number of units. </p>
<p>Costs per unit will be: </p>
<p>Plant 1 Material cost + conversion cost/unit = £1100 </p>
<p>Plant 2 Material cost + conversion cost/unit = £100 </p>
<p>I think that for processed items FG Stock should be the sum of material costs per unit x number of units plus conversion costs for the period (identified seperately). </p>
<p>Attempting to compute total costs per unit has no value as far as I can see, but it could lead to invalid pricing decisions (especially where cost + pricing is used) or invalid make/buy decisions. </p>
<p>To take this a step further one might argue that variable costs at least should be included in the cost/unit, not so. Let us consider direct labour, this should be fairly straightforward to assign to products. Total direct labour/total output = direct labour cost per unit. But: </p>
<p>What happens if I improve the efficiency of my workforce? Perhaps we have a culture of continuous improvement, then over time the labour required to manufacture x number of items decreases. This then is not a fundamental property of the product, &#8220;direct&#8221; labour is a property of the process, and once you make that leap of faith you realise that there are no truly variable costs because everything can change irrespective of the product or quantity being manufactured.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Cokins</title>
		<link>http://costechnology.com/performance-center/common-cents-blog/the-return-on-investment-from-abc/comment-page-1#comment-73</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Cokins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 15:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://67.20.95.110/?p=368#comment-73</guid>
		<description>Mike makes great points here. 

I believe one of the problems that the Theory of Constraints (Eli Goldratt and the book &quot;The Goal&quot;) have with ABC is their assumption is &quot;We own the capacity which is fixed (unadjustable), so let&#039;s fill it.&quot; Hence their simplified fixation with &quot;Any product cost is meaningless, and there is no calculated product cost. Only purchased material expenses are variable.&quot; 

That resource capacity is adjustable (temps vs. full-time employees, lease vs. buy) is a separate discussion for another time. 

What I like about Mike&#039;s point is the focus on filling freed up and available capacity that results from productivity improvements. This begs the question, &quot;Who owns idle capacity? Operations or Sales?&quot; I believe it is the latter. Operations&#039; goal is create more with improvements. The basic options are either fill unused capacity with sales (to make more money) or remove it (layoffs?). The Sales function should be involved and understand unused capacity management.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike makes great points here. </p>
<p>I believe one of the problems that the Theory of Constraints (Eli Goldratt and the book &#8220;The Goal&#8221;) have with ABC is their assumption is &#8220;We own the capacity which is fixed (unadjustable), so let&#8217;s fill it.&#8221; Hence their simplified fixation with &#8220;Any product cost is meaningless, and there is no calculated product cost. Only purchased material expenses are variable.&#8221; </p>
<p>That resource capacity is adjustable (temps vs. full-time employees, lease vs. buy) is a separate discussion for another time. </p>
<p>What I like about Mike&#8217;s point is the focus on filling freed up and available capacity that results from productivity improvements. This begs the question, &#8220;Who owns idle capacity? Operations or Sales?&#8221; I believe it is the latter. Operations&#8217; goal is create more with improvements. The basic options are either fill unused capacity with sales (to make more money) or remove it (layoffs?). The Sales function should be involved and understand unused capacity management.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Noble</title>
		<link>http://costechnology.com/performance-center/common-cents-blog/the-return-on-investment-from-abc/comment-page-1#comment-72</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Noble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 15:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://67.20.95.110/?p=368#comment-72</guid>
		<description>It is my opinion that fundamentally, simplifying the business process is a desirable goal in its own right, and ABC helps us to achieve this. There may be no &quot;compelling reason&quot; for this and it may make precious little difference to ROI in itself. If we can achieve the same output for less effort then great, but I wouldn&#039;t expect ROI to automatically zoom up. 

It is what we do with the increased capacity that counts. If we do nothing then results will be pretty much the same. If we have a strategy for utilising the resources we have freed up, then results will improve. 

For me one of the major benefits of ABC is actually analysing what it is we do. From there it&#039;s a small step to ask why do we do it? And could we do it better? Do we need to do it? 

Once people start thinking about the processes they are involved in then great things can happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is my opinion that fundamentally, simplifying the business process is a desirable goal in its own right, and ABC helps us to achieve this. There may be no &#8220;compelling reason&#8221; for this and it may make precious little difference to ROI in itself. If we can achieve the same output for less effort then great, but I wouldn&#8217;t expect ROI to automatically zoom up. </p>
<p>It is what we do with the increased capacity that counts. If we do nothing then results will be pretty much the same. If we have a strategy for utilising the resources we have freed up, then results will improve. </p>
<p>For me one of the major benefits of ABC is actually analysing what it is we do. From there it&#8217;s a small step to ask why do we do it? And could we do it better? Do we need to do it? </p>
<p>Once people start thinking about the processes they are involved in then great things can happen.</p>
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		<title>By: John Larson</title>
		<link>http://costechnology.com/performance-center/common-cents-blog/the-return-on-investment-from-abc/comment-page-1#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator>John Larson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:13:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://67.20.95.110/?p=368#comment-38</guid>
		<description>I agree with the idea that you should quantify ROI even when it is hard to do so.  This provides an ongoing rationale for the continued use of ABC.  Every decision made based on ABC/M data helps to ensure continued investment in the tools and information and reminds business decision makers why they are spending money on it.  In this economic environment that reminder is important.

I believe the challenge is with respect to the initial investment, since you can&#039;t get that sort of analytics without the toolset in place.  At the beginning I think it is necessary to prove that you are providing the information as cost effectively as possible, and as Gary points out, have business decision makers who see the potential business benefit and are ready to make decisions on that basis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the idea that you should quantify ROI even when it is hard to do so.  This provides an ongoing rationale for the continued use of ABC.  Every decision made based on ABC/M data helps to ensure continued investment in the tools and information and reminds business decision makers why they are spending money on it.  In this economic environment that reminder is important.</p>
<p>I believe the challenge is with respect to the initial investment, since you can&#8217;t get that sort of analytics without the toolset in place.  At the beginning I think it is necessary to prove that you are providing the information as cost effectively as possible, and as Gary points out, have business decision makers who see the potential business benefit and are ready to make decisions on that basis.</p>
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